The two things Europe needs to spend its defence budget on For a bit of context here, the EU is proposing a €150bn loan programme, "Security Action for Europe" (SAFE), to help member states boost their defence spending through joint procurement projects. The UK is hoping to be able to join the security pact. Before diving into the answer, Michael Clarke says the €150bn is just the tip of the spear. The full plan is for Europe to have a kitty of more than €800bn when all is said and done. But the initial budget, which is still considerable, should be spent on two things, Clarke says. "One is to make up the gaps that have opened up over the last 10-15 years in all everyone's defences, the worst gaps," he says. He points to ammunition, logistics and backups behind the frontline as the most glaring areas that need addressing. "You've got to spend quite a lot of it on that," he adds. Clarke points to creating an environment where the continent more sustainably produces for those gaps too, rather than scrambling for supply chains as we've seen since the start of the Ukraine war. "But the other thing is that you've got to balance that against transformational technologies," he says. He implores EU defence chiefs to get comfortable with the idea of retiring equipment earlier, with the rapid rate that technology is developing quickly putting gear out of date earlier than ever. "You've got to be prepared to retire things early - systems that are going to go out of business by the 2035, get rid of them by 2028, don't don't let them go to the end of their life and then work to replace them," he says. That will involve a more proactive approach to defence and massive investment in technology, including in sectors like AI.